Tesla All Elec Sports Car Review PBS Motor Week

[BadMonKey]

I'm sorry but that is a blatant cooking up of the data ................

Last winter in the Denver metro area we had power troubles for the entire winter due to a failure & fire at a , ONE transformer station .

In Denver whenever we have temps above 90+ -100* F or 10*to 15* F highs or lower for more than a few days the local grid almost topples . Brown outs in the area are a well known problem that exist fairly often blowing out electronics and killing light bulbs . I have upc's connected to every piece of electronics I own . I have a friend that has lost 4 hard drive SAT receivers from power problems .

I bet everyone of us here could easily find similar in their area if they looked .

Can you imagine after a cold night like last night in my part of the south due to load control you go out into your fancy electric car expecting it to be charged and it isn't ???? And it isn't because too many other people plugged their cars in when we all needed heat and killed the grid . And that fantasy of using the plugged in cars to help the grid is decades in the future so is pointless to the discussion .

So yeah we can handle the extra load of all electrics for about 1/3-3/8 of the time . But the rest of the time we are all feldercarbed..............

Also something important to add to argument , when ever we are in the extreme temp range all electrics use the most energy shortening their range adding even more load to an already strained to the breaking point power grid .

1st off it was a substation (and a big one) not a simple transformer. They had the power back up to the 31K people that lost power that day Xcel knew that substation needed to be updated and chose not to.

Denver is not known for power outages, I've lived here most of my life and experienced 2 that lasted longer than a couple hours. Our grid is not that old and outside of a couple older neighborhoods we almost never have outages due to overuse. Most of the power outages here are due to cheap/lazy homeowners not trimming their trees that break or topple over from snow or wind. Come to think of it I've never lost in power in my current home in the last 6 years.

The increased load from EV's in neighborhoods would most likely only bring down your local transformer that is designed to pop before bringing the grid down. Overall this whole paranoid grid failure from EV's is a joke as plugging in a electric car is the equivalent of plugging in a space heater (1500 watts). How many people own or use a space heaters, has the world come to end yet

 

[BadMonKey]

Also if you live in LA or Denver you should move, one city is in a bankrupt state (in more than one way) and the other is a great place to visit, but it gets cold has heck there and there's little oxygen there. Ha ha! out.

Hey could you tell California and Texas that Colorado is a crappy place to live They seem to be moving here in groves lately

 

[RabbitGTI]

Don't know about the grid, but I think they are closer to 5600 Watts. On an electric car forum somebody said it's about $6.75 to fully charge a Leaf at .15 kWH. That works out to about 5600 watts if you assume charging for eight hours.

 

[rotarykid]

1st off it was a substation (and a big one) not a simple transformer. They had the power back up to the 31K people that lost power that day Xcel knew that substation needed to be updated and chose not to.

You made my point better than I did , ONE substation fails knocking out power in a wide swathe of Denver and crippling the rest of the metro grid . I guess you missed all pleas made by XCEL to please reduce power usage to prevent further failures during the crisis . Also you made my point that we have a weak outdated system in bad need of update which XCEL admitted to .............

Denver is not known for power outages, I've lived here most of my life and experienced 2 that lasted longer than a couple hours. Our grid is not that old and outside of a couple older neighborhoods we almost never have outages due to overuse. Most of the power outages here are due to cheap/lazy homeowners not trimming their trees that break or topple over from snow or wind. Come to think of it I've never lost in power in my current home in the last 6 years.

In south west Denver metro outages are quite frequent , XCEL was fined for this a few years ago . In the last 15 years in my current part of the city power outages are quite frequent and can last for hours . But this isn't the real problem but the drops in voltage that happen all the time here . My upc's go off quite often , the alarms are noisy and hard to ignore .

The increased load from EV's in neighborhoods would most likely only bring down your local transformer that is designed to pop before bringing the grid down. Overall this whole paranoid grid failure from EV's is a joke as plugging in a electric car is the equivalent of plugging in a space heater (1500 watts). How many people own or use a space heaters, has the world come to end yet

 

[rotarykid]

Don't know about the grid, but I think they are closer to 5600 Watts. On an electric car forum somebody said it's about $6.75 to fully charge a Leaf at .15 kWH. That works out to about 5600 watts if you assume charging for eight hours.

What I have read it's more like 7,500 Watts consumed in adverse weather to recharge in the real world . and that is an estimate so it could be higher .......

 

[BadMonKey]

Don't know about the grid, but I think they are closer to 5600 Watts. On an electric car forum somebody said it's about $6.75 to fully charge a Leaf at .15 kWH. That works out to about 5600 watts if you assume charging for eight hours.

You cant draw 5600 watts from a standard home outlet, from what I've read the Volt and Leaf pull 1500 watts. Tesla requires more juice from a dedicated 220 outlet. I think Nissan also offers a rapid charger that you can purchase that requires a dedicated 220 outlet.

 

[rotarykid]

No offense I'll assume you're not an electrical engineer or manage the electric grid? Most charging would happen on off peak times. Also a Nuke plant in every city would solve some issues. Not every vehicle will be electric for a long time if ever. Again long after we are gone and for many generations to come, petro will be around.... but with a little imagination and math, at some point it will go bye bye. They might make totally synthetic liquid fuels from air by then? I'm not worried about it. The Leaf and VOLT are nice just from technology standpoint; it will fill a niche market, retired folks in Florida (who already take golf carts on the road). I wouldn't like an all electric in the frozen north in the middle of a blizzard and see the lights get dim... (Electric car range is significantly cut by use of heat and AC.) Of course running out of gas in a blizzard sucks... Have not run out of gas in 30 yrs.

Actually I do have a degree in Electrical Engineering ................and technical degrees related to Mechanical Engineering .

 

[rotarykid]

Batteries don't care much for cold either. I've always been curious if the few people I've seen with hybrids up here have had any performance issues related to that.

I do like electric cars though.....from a technology point of view. And the Tesla is pretty cool.

Plus the ever evolving technology related to all this...also very cool and interesting.

Whether any of it will be life changing......I doubt it, at least for the near future. Too many people like their gas vehicles. And that's not going to change anytime soon....at least until something cheaper and better (hp) comes along.

The future does look interesting though.....whether it's cold fusion, biofuels, home power generation, cars that run on farts, or whatever.

In extreme cold the current hybrids drop down to the best the gas engine can produce . I have a friend in Denver the has a two year old Prius that has no garage to park it in during winter months . His mpgs drop down to around 30 mpg once it gets cold , lower if he drives less .

I have an ex-girlfriend that drives a Highlander hybrid and that thing looses all of it's hybrid consumption advantage once the cold sets in .

I've showed them both that they can help their mpgs a small bit in the cold if they use "B" mode whenever possible in the cold to reduce battery load consumption . "B" mode use can a make a real difference in electrical supply keeping the batteries happy in the cold . But that means constantly shifting which most automatic only drivers just can't comprehend and refuse to do .

With these real world examples of what cold does to battery assisted cars how bad will the effect be on all electric one's ?????????????????? Maybe half the available driving range from optimal temps operation ........And that puts a lot of the all the "proposed" electrics of today into the not practical for anyone range .........

 

[Mike_V]

Which was one of my points: There isn't a NEED for a second car if the first car also does what the second one could, and does it better to boot.
High energy efficiency, for short trips or commuting? TDI. So it takes 20 minutes once a month to fill it, versus several hours a night, every night to recharge. I'd wager that one would spend at least one minute to plug in, and unplug, 20 times a month (5 work days, four weeks) so the electric doesn't save the owner any time either.
Long range for those occasional trips longer than 100 (or whatever) mile range? TDI again.

I'm not sure I agree with the "better" part, at least from a future-adaptation point of view. Electric cars are more flexible in terms of accommodating different renewable energy sources, whereas diesels are limited to biodiesel. Electric vehicles also offer far lower tailpipe emissions, which - as much as we love to rail against CARB and strip out emissions components here - are a significant health issue in dense urban environments. And for short trips where the engine isn't fully warm and stop-and-go traffic the electrics should have a substantial efficiency advantage - depending on where your electricity is coming from, you may pay less, even if you don't save time at the pump. I see urban electric vehicles and long-distance biodiesel-driven transport as complementary parts of a path towards renewable energy.

 

[BadMonKey]

What I have read it's more like 7,500 Watts consumed in adverse weather to recharge in the real world . and that is an estimate so it could be higher .......

Nonsense; you would have to have a dedicated 220 outlet and most homes couldn't even support 7,500 Watts plus everything else in the home Where do you come up with this? Both the Leaf and the Volt require a single dedicated standard outlet period!

 

[rotarykid]

You make a big false assumption, the power grid can't be improved, it will remain static from now one.

You are taking extreme conditions, for extreme locals and weather. We have the technology and ability to improve the power grid capacity TODAY if there was the demand. With more capacity (nuke plants) these issues will be reduced. Yes you can have local outage. So what? Remember the 1970's when there was no gas, or fuel prices a few years ago, $4.40/gal for super? http://www.randomuseless.info/gasprice/gasprice.html

NO ONE is saying the capacity and modernization of the Electric Grid is not needed to meet FUTURE demands of electric cars. I'm sorry, but you are using propaganda, hyperbole, not logic and facts. If I had an electric car, lived in a place of power outages, I'd have a little propane or diesel powered generator. Propane is way available and 99% of it comes form the USA, not from places where the people hate us and want to kill us.

Clearly we NEED more Nuke plants. Even the green tree hugging weenies of the 1970's, 1980's, 1990's who fought tooth & nail Nuke plants.... today now say NUKE IS A GOOD OPTION. To be fair there was some concern, Three Mile Island, Chernobyl, but with better technology, standardization, Nuke plants can be very safe. Yes there is radioactive nuke waste, so what, it can be sealed and put in the bottom of a mine-shaft; it's green from a green house gas standpoint.

Economics for power companies is to have the capacity to supply the average load. It does not make sense to have excess capacity for the peak in the worst weather 1% of the year. This is when they try to get power from another grid. Electricity can't be stored at the grid level. They make it they NEED to FEED it..... As the demand increases (for electric cars) Power Companies will be glad to increase capacity, if there is a steady demand (and paying customers). Otherwise they will not increase capacity because it does not make economic sense. Also approval of Nuke plants is needed, which I think is happening. Blackouts and brownouts in the USA is not acceptable. We have the technology to improve the grid and increase capacity, so this is not going to stop electric cars. Electric cars need to get cheaper with more range and shorter charge time.

SOLAR POWER is improving... and that might be the answer to charging cars, obviously not for all parts of the USA. Some people might use hydrogen powered fuel cell cars (like spacecraft use, where hydrogen is turned into electricity and water).

Also if you live in LA or Denver you should move, one city is in a bankrupt state (in more than one way) and the other is a great place to visit, but it gets cold has heck there and there's little oxygen there. Ha ha! If you live where there are floods, earthquakes, extreme life threatening weather, crime, blackouts and so on.... MOVE! It does not take genius to figure it out.

a couple of points , first there hasn't been a new nuke build in the US since the late 70s . And until we figure out a good place to put the waste I'm not really for building a lot more of them . In NC where I live there are several of them , one I grew up next to is less than 10 NM from my house . All of them in the region have massive amounts of waste stored on site because we have no clue what to do with the waste . When I say no clue we do have an idea but the political pressure has kept us from using reprocessing which is the only real option today .

And anyone that has ever read my posts knows that I do remember the 1970s and think it is criminal that we abandoned CAFE in the mid 80s . Our lack of an energy policy for the last 25 years has lead consumption/waste to levels never seen before .

And nothing I've said is propaganda but real facts from our countries power grid today . There seems to be no political will today to re-build our power grid to handle the load we have today . So where will all of the money that must be spent to upgrade the power grid to handle the coming electric car load come from ??????????

I'm sorry but the weather extremes are part of everyday life and have to be figured in . And power is stored all the time in what are called battery lakes . Denver has them west of town as does Duke power co in NC . Many power companies across the US have them .

The main power producers across NC just dropped a proposed project to install wind generators on the Albemarle sound . They claimed it wasn't practical ...... So forgive me but I do base my statements on the reality of our power grid today .

While I'm not the biggest fan of S CAL it's not a bad place to live . And Denver has been far warmer this fall than all of NC . We have been close to 70* most every day this week . Raleigh has gotten more measurable snow than Denver to date this fall ............

And having lived through more than few hurricanes in central & eastern NC that flooded and destroyed everything , what as your point about moving ............The weather in Denver most of the time is way milder than where I live in NC . Not as hot in summer nor as wet & cold in the worst of winter .

 

[gmcjetpilot]

Actually I do have a degree in Electrical Engineering ................and technical degrees related to Mechanical Engineering .

I have a masters in mechanical engineering, from UW (Seattle). My undergrad was from LSU.

If I said real, apparent, reactive power and power factor, would you know what I meant? I only ask because many EE's are only into digital technology. Many EE's are clueless about electrical grids. They took one class (as I did), AC circuits 101, first year in the school of engineering. I'm no expert, but your comment is opinion, not factual. Any power plant/electrical grid engineer will tell you, the system needs to grow, but that would not be difficult. It only takes demand and money. It would also be energy we produce in the USA, money not sent to the Middle East. We have the technology. With wind, solar and nuke power the future is bright!

What is, "technical degrees related to Mechanical Engineering". Either you have a Bachelor of Science (B.S.), Masters of Science (M.S.) or Doctor of Science (Ph.D), degree in mechanical engineering or you don't. As you know engineering is the least understood field by laypeople, and it is the most abused title. Everyone is an "engineer". Call yourself a doctor and see how long that lasts.

So tell me why the grid can't be updated to meet the demand, if that is indeed your opinion? If not you agree with me, the power grid is not a road block. Making electricity is not an issue either (with nuke power). JetA/Diesel/Gasoline/Propane/Natural Gas/Coal is not going out of style for a long time. Of course if we stop buying Mid East oil others will NOT. No one is suggesting that the world oil industry is close to pumping its last drop. Oil industry is 145 yrs old. We are using world wide 80 million gallons of oil every day and the rate increases exponentially. With China expanding and becoming a world economic and industrial power, their energy demands will increase. Oil will be around for a LONG TIME, but it will get more expensive, WAY more expensive, as demand increases and easy oil drys up.

If gas was $30/gal today, would that make an electric car more desirable? Yes? I'd consider an all electric "Leaf" if gas was that much. I rarely drive more than 100 miles a day. A day will come when oil is depleted. When will that be, I don't know; we will be history by then. There are many trillions of gallons of oil that we know about. May be earth will be history before we use it, so why worry. Burn more oil! I think from what I know, in about 100-150 yrs reality will happen. If you assume 3 trillion gallons of "easy oil" at current usage (with no increase which is not realistic) that's about 100 yrs. It's better to prepare now then later, when it's too late, if you care about your great great grand kids? A side benefit might be lower pollution. I'm not too worried about global warming, but if we can lower pollution that's cool. Wind and Solar are "renewable". Nuke energy will be endless, a lot of uranium and plutonium.

Right now electric cars do not make economic or practical sense for most people, but say middle east imposes an oil embargo, like they did twice in the 1970's. Remember the shortage, long line at the gas station? I was a kid. I remember. What about a few yrs ago when premium gas was $4.40/gal. I'm glad they're developing the technology. Who knows when I'm old, gray, retired in Florida with my Tesla sports car I bought used from George Clooney, with my 25 yr old Swedish super model girlfriend, I'll be laughing as we drive past the gas station with $9.80/gal gas (diesel $11.96/gal). I got the girlfriend because of the car of course.

P.S., I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night and saw History Channels "Modern Marvels" on the power grid yesterday. The grid can be expanded! I'm yanking your chain, no offense, cheers and Merry Christmas. May be Santa will bring me a Tesla sports car and that 25 yr old hottie?

 

[rotarykid]

Nonsense; you would have to have a dedicated 220 outlet and most homes couldn't even support 7,500 Watts plus everything else in the home Where do you come up with this? Both the Leaf and the Volt require a single dedicated standard outlet period!

Everything I've read says for these things to charge up in a reasonable amount of time they must have a dedicated 220 line charge station that will need to be added to home service on top of regular service to re-charge from .

I think charging from your existing 110 line in one's garage or in front of your house is a fantasy unless you live in a mild climate without extremes of any kind ( fantasy land ) .

And in the extreme cold that charge will be on batteries that have been discharged close to or over their safety limits , ( shortening their lives ) if they have to live outside which will increase the load . Or they will be driving around in a discharged rate with extremely shortened ranges . Which is what happens today on hybrids in cold climates .

 

[BadMonKey]

In extreme cold the current hybrids drop down to the best the gas engine can produce . I have a friend in Denver the has a two year old Prius that has no garage to park it in during winter months . His mpgs drop down to around 30 mpg once it gets cold , lower if he drives less .

I have an ex-girlfriend that drives a Highlander hybrid and that thing looses all of it's hybrid consumption advantage once the cold sets in .

I've showed them both that they can help their mpgs a small bit in the cold if they use "B" mode whenever possible in the cold to reduce battery load consumption . "B" mode use can a make a real difference in electrical supply keeping the batteries happy in the cold . But that means constantly shifting which most automatic only drivers just can't comprehend and refuse to do .

With these real world examples of what cold does to battery assisted cars how bad will the effect be on all electric one's ?????????????????? Maybe half the available driving range from optimal temps operation ........And that puts a lot of the all the "proposed" electrics of today into the not practical for anyone range .........

Hum drove the Prius to Steamboat last weekend and averaged 61mpg on the tank. Driving to the ski area in the morning with a outside temp. of 3 we averaged 48 for the 20 min trip. We have 4 Prius's in our company fleet and they all average better than 40mpg in the winter with no covered parking. Yes colder weather hurts battery efficiency but not to the extent you just mentioned and our Prius is effected by maybe 5-8% in the coldest months. Our garage is not heated and not attached to the house so its as cold as being outside.

You are king of misinformation on hybrids Please read this and reeducate those you provided bad information to http://www.techno-fandom.org/~hobbit/cars/b-mode.html. While in B-mode you actually prevent the start/stop function on the gas engine so you are warming up the engine faster but at the expense of burning more fuel. There is no fuel savings advantage using the B-mode in 04+ Prius's, just saving your brakes on long hills.

B-mode should be used to slow the car down on hills period, using the B-mode actually wastes more energy than just lightly pressing the brake pedal which maximizes regeneration to the battery.

The Jury is still out on how low temps will affect the new EV's. All i know is a friend that owns a EV rav4 claims no issues or lack of range as he sets the charging to end in the morning so the battery is warm when he leaves for work. I would predict that someone like Nissan has thought this through and it will prove to be a non-issue like all the battery related myths when hybrids 1st hit the market.

 

[rotarykid]

Gas/Diesel $30 a gal , what a joke we can't sustain $5 a gal here without the world coming to an end as we know it ......

I Never said it can't be done , but we are in a political climate where no one even wants to pay with a higher gas tax for the roads upkeep we drive on everyday . The gas tax hasn't been raised in close to 20 years and it seems to be suicide for a politician to tell the truth that we need to . Or a penny for the two wars we are fighting to secure that energy that is being wasted today for no technical reason . We could easily today have fleets of diesel powered cars that would have no trouble achieving 60-70 mpgUS in everyday driving if we had the political will to require it / allow it .

You talk to them about the billions that need to be spent on upgrading the power grid just to current required standards their eyes glaze over with a blank look on their face . What will they do if we come to them with our hands out saying that we need to spend trillions to make real electric cars practical and watch what happens ...............Until that changes we have little change of making this idea practical .

 

[rotarykid]

First I stated that the mileage was worse with less use in the cold , which can't in any way compare to the fleet you have that is used everyday I bet . If you are clocking the miles like you say of course the cold weather hit will be less , plenty of time and engine running to keep the batteries topped off the keep the batteries warm . Let the hybrids sit rarely used in the cold and see what mpgs you return . I garentee the consumption numbers will be similar to what I've observed .


And "B" mode on lower speed city loops does increase regenerative braking building up the batteries without overrun which kills mpgs . Once your speed gets above a certain point yes it will use more gas but there is a window , under 40-45 mph where you gain battery power over just staying in "D" . If you don't believe it why don't you try it ......And shifting back into "D" before you come to a stop allows the stop & start function to work . I tested this out over several thousand miles the last couple of winters up here and clocked mpg improvement over not doing so .

Litely pushing on the brake usually engauges the actual brakes costing energy most of the time . Whie just using "B" at lower speeds just uses the extra regenerative braking to slow charging the batteries to more charged state . I observed at least a 1/3 - 3/8 higher charge state while using "B" to slow especially in the toyota SUV hybrid over just staying in "D" around town . With effort the gains were similar in the Prius .

Have you tried this , are you just assuming you know better ????

 

[gmcjetpilot]

Gas/Diesel $30 a gal , what a joke we can't sustain $5 a gal here without the world coming to an end as we know it ......

I gather folks here like to make straw man arguments or take something out of context.

Gas was 5 cents in the 30's. Gas was 17 cents in the 50's and 36 cents in 1975. In 1985 it was $1.11. Why are you so incredulous? I was tying to make a point, at some point gas prices would make EV cars look real good.

Oil will get harder to find, and demand will go up, as does inflation. Put on your thinking cap. I don't predict it will be $30 in our lifetime, but why not $6.00/gal or $9.00/gal? It doesn't matter what is good for you, what you think or wish to happen, events out of your control could make fuel cost "skyrocket". I already laid out the geopolitics and global economics. It's reality. Denial is a fine coping mechanism. May be "drill baby drill" will win the white house in 2012 and we'll be flush with cheap oil?, but that is not how the oil industry works. When domestic oil companies get cheap domestic oil they still "Charge" or sell their self the oil the produce, at the going international rate. They just make WAY MORE MONEY! The get cheap oil they DO NOT PASS THE SAVINGS ON TO US, THEY MAKE MORE MONEY.

I'm not a prophet, but in 100-150 years, and you can quote me, gas will be A LOT MORE. Brilliant I know.

Gas is about, approx $3.00/gal today. $30/gal is only 10 times as much. Gas is 6 times what it was only 30 yrs ago. Why can't it go up another 2 or 3 fold in 20 yrs? Gas is not getting easier to get and demand is going up. Come on use a little imagination.

 

[BadMonKey]

First I stated that the mileage was worse with less use in the cold , which can't in any way compare to the fleet you have that is used everyday I bet . If you are clocking the miles like you say of course the cold weather hit will be less , plenty of time and engine running to keep the batteries topped off the keep the batteries warm . Let the hybrids sit rarely used in the cold and see what mpgs you return . I garentee the consumption numbers will be similar to what I've observed .


And "B" mode on lower speed city loops does increase regenerative braking building up the batteries without overrun which kills mpgs . Once your speed gets above a certain point yes it will use more gas but there is a window , under 40-45 mph where you gain battery power over just staying in "D" . If you don't believe it why don't you try it ......And shifting back into "D" before you come to a stop allows the stop & start function to work . I tested this out over several thousand miles the last couple of winters up here and clocked mpg improvement over not doing so .

Litely pushing on the brake usually engauges the actual brakes costing energy most of the time . Whie just using "B" at lower speeds just uses the extra regenerative braking to slow charging the batteries to more charged state . I observed at least a 1/3 - 3/8 higher charge state while using "B" to slow especially in the toyota SUV hybrid over just staying in "D" around town . With effort the gains were similar in the Prius .

Have you tried this , are you just assuming you know better ????

Wow; just read the link i provided already!

I've been driving it for over 6 years now and never seen it average below 35mpg on a 5+ mile trip, even when it set in the DIA parking lot for 2 weeks in the winter it still would average 40+ on the way home (45 min. drive).

I've read hypermiller stories and blogs on different ways to use the B mode and haven't found any of them actually make a difference in mpgs. Lightly pressing the brake does not engage the actual brakes and max's the regeneration potential! I assure you from my personal experience and that of others your hurting your mpg's by running around in B-mode, and Toyota supports that in the owners manual, website, and any other material they release.

 

[RabbitGTI]

You cant draw 5600 watts from a standard home outlet, from what I've read the Volt and Leaf pull 1500 watts. Tesla requires more juice from a dedicated 220 outlet. I think Nissan also offers a rapid charger that you can purchase that requires a dedicated 220 outlet.

The Leaf charger is 220 and possible owners are pissed about how much it costs.

 

[rotarykid]

who said anything about running around in "B" mode , I never did . What I said was use "B" mode when slowing & slowing to a stop at low speeds on city loops instead just of the brakes . I did observe the batteries staying in a more charged state from this on the display . Also clocked an improvement of mpgs .

And on achieving lower mpgs , try driving one of these no more than 3 times a week for short trips . Then about every 5-6 weeks let it sit unused outside in the cold for the most part for 2 weeks . These are the conditions I speak of for lower mpgs around Denver over a tank .

And in a Prius in S CAL I saw first hand it had trouble getting much above that ~36-39 mpgUS , pen & paper as a daily driver . Naturally the display claimed mid 40s but fill after fill called it a lier with a nothing above 39 actually ever returned . The computer in that thing gave numbers as high as the low 60s but not one ever showed it much out of the high 30s to around 40 real world . She clocked close to 80k miles with all the gas receipts to back up the numbers , company car with every mile accounted for at the end of the day . The tanks included short runs to 80 mph then the stop & go thrown in while running from the Riverside area to Irvine to La Vern and to San Diego on a daily basis .

And my numbers are real . x miles traveled / x amount of gasoline filled . Not cooked up numbers , fantasy numbers that the computer gives out . And I back up that statement with fill after fill that showed a minimum error of 5 % with a max error of close 25 % optimistic above real world consumption .

So from my observation when the display says closes to 60 mpg you are in reality in the high 40s to maybe low 50s mpgUS at best . And when the display says low to mid 40s you are actually consuming high 30s to around 40 mpgUS . Toyota admits that the consumption numbers displayed on these cars are optimistic at best which my observations back up their admission .

And the tank system these things have make getting real consumption numbers hard to get short of emptying the tank them filling it with a specified amount then running it till it stops and repeat , not very practical . Something hard to argu with are 80k miles and all the gas consumed over the period showing a consumption in the high 30s mpgUS .

 

[BadMonKey]

The Leaf charger is 220 and possible owners are pissed about how much it costs.

You have 3 options
1- 480 volt rapid charger - 30 min. to get to 80% charge
2- 220/240 volt home charger - 7 hrs to full charge
3- 110/120 trickle charger - 20 hrs to full charge

 

[ikendu]

In 2006 (during the Bush administration), the DOE released a report where they calculate if every car on the road at that time was an electric car, our existing grid could charge 86% of those vehicles.

If you want the link, search for one of the many times I've posted a link to this study, here on this forum.

I'm sorry but that is a blatant cooking up of the data ...

Well, complain to the Department Of Energy. I didn't do the study, they did.

Did you even try to find one of the many times I've posted this link before and read the news item? I'm going to guess... no.

Here is the link. I remembered the % wrong. I said 86% and the study says 84%. My apologies.

Mileage From Megawatts: Study Finds Enough Electric Capacity To 'Fill Up' Plug-in Vehicles
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/12/061211221149.htm

 

[RabbitGTI]

You have 3 options
1- 480 volt rapid charger - 30 min. to get to 80% charge
2- 220/240 volt home charger - 7 hrs to full charge
3- 110/120 trickle charger - 20 hrs to full charge

#3 is useless
#2 is mandatory in the real World and 2k bucks
#1 is more expensive

That's why I said there was one option in the real World.
Check how many miles #1 gives you after an hour charge. If you live 1 mile from work, you might get there and back LOL

I actually think early electric crap is great. I'm buying a Z06 Vette when I retire, so there will be more gas left for me

 

[BadMonKey]

who said anything about running around in "B" mode , I never did . What I said was use "B" mode when slowing & slowing to a stop at low speeds on city loops instead just of the brakes . I did observe the batteries staying in a more charged state from this on the display . Also clocked an improvement of mpgs .

And on achieving lower mpgs , try driving one of these no more than 3 times a week for short trips . Then about every 5-6 weeks let it sit unused outside in the cold for the most part for 2 weeks . These are the conditions I speak of for lower mpgs around Denver over a tank .

And in a Prius in S CAL I saw first hand it had trouble getting much above that ~36-39 mpgUS , pen & paper as a daily driver . Naturally the display claimed mid 40s but fill after fill called it a lier with a nothing above 39 actually ever returned . The computer in that thing gave numbers as high as the low 60s but not one ever showed it much out of the high 30s to around 40 real world . She clocked close to 80k miles with all the gas receipts to back up the numbers , company car with every mile accounted for at the end of the day . The tanks included short runs to 80 mph then the stop & go thrown in while running from the Riverside area to Irvine to La Vern and to San Diego on a daily basis .

And my numbers are real . x miles traveled / x amount of gasoline filled . Not cooked up numbers , fantasy numbers that the computer gives out . And I back up that statement with fill after fill that showed a minimum error of 5 % with a max error of close 25 % optimistic above real world consumption .

So from my observation when the display says closes to 60 mpg you are in reality in the high 40s to maybe low 50s mpgUS at best . And when the display says low to mid 40s you are actually consuming high 30s to around 40 mpgUS . Toyota admits that the consumption numbers displayed on these cars are optimistic at best which my observations back up their admission .

And the tank system these things have make getting real consumption numbers hard to get short of emptying the tank them filling it with a specified amount then running it till it stops and repeat , not very practical . Something hard to argu with are 80k miles and all the gas consumed over the period showing a consumption in the high 30s mpgUS .

The fuel bladder in the Prius makes the pen and pencil calculations difficult and i rely on the scanguage and on board display. I bet the computer in yours is more accurate than your manual method as you never know how many gallons is actually in it unless you run it bone dry. I actually ran ours completely dry and kept track of every gallon that went back in it and came up with numbers really close to the scanguage so I stopped using the manual method.

You are not able to get as much fuel in the bladder in cold temperatures, and its damn near impossible to get the full 11.9 gallons in any condition. Sometimes when its below 20 I can't get more than 6 gallons in it after the low fuel indicator comes on.

Sorry i just don't buy your fuel economy numbers, even our work fleet gets better than that and I'm sure my staff isn't being nice to them. As most of the miles are billed to a client we track miles driven and fuel usage pretty close so its not just relying on the computers.

 

[ikendu]

I just saw the latest show with the Tesla Sports Car. I was impressed. It does 0-60 mph in the low 3 seconds and the quarter mile in the 13 sec range.

BTW... I got a ride in a Tesla here in Iowa last year. OMG! What an impressive sports car!

 

[BadMonKey]

#3 is useless
#2 is mandatory in the real World and 2k bucks
#1 is more expensive

That's why I said there was one option in the real World.
Check how many miles #1 gives you after an hour charge. If you live 1 mile from work, you might get there and back LOL

I wonder how many people will buy it before checking if their home can actually handle another dedicated 220 outlet. I know mine cant between the drier, oven, welder, and hot tub I'm maxed out.

 

[CBS06]

Tesla I envisioned a car with a chrome ball mounted a 4 ft pole atop sucking lightening bolts off everything it drives by ( at a street light the car next to you HID's just go dim as you drive away ), Ill take one.

 

[Lug_Nut]

You are king of misinformation on hybrids Please read this and reeducate those you provided bad information to http://www.techno-fandom.org/~hobbit/cars/b-mode.html.

I've had the pleasure to have competed in a fuel economy competition against "hobbit" and all his prowess at maximizing fuel economy from his extensively modified Gen II Prius.

http://www.icerace.com/amec-2008-economy-2.html

 

[BadMonKey]

Met a service manager for Tesla last night at a X-mas party gathering, found a lot of his information pretty interesting.

If you need a software update, PM, or repair he actually fly's to your location anywhere west of the Mississippi river (A different group handles the east side). They come to your house or work and take care of any issues you might have. Now that's service i could get use too

 

[rotarykid]

I've had the pleasure to have competed in a fuel economy competition against "hobbit" and all his prowess at maximizing fuel economy from his extensively modified Gen II Prius.

http://www.icerace.com/amec-2008-economy-2.html

71.55 mpg in an 05 Passat TDI-PD that is pretty good ....B4 Passat TDI good !! I've hit just under 65 mpgUS a couple of times in everyday driving in a 97 Passat , that was with a mix of HSD & LSD and dab of BD .

How exactly did you pull that off , "N" w/engine shut off on the down slopes ?? I've clocked a marked improvement of mpgs when ever I done the above on anything . How did they measure how much fuel you consumed ?? Was there a required min speed or max speed or did they just do average ??